Seth Nightlord: a study in rejections

[narcasse]

Picking up from comments here it struck me that Seth’s dull gaze as she comments she’s hated again in Act 33 really is only the latest in a long series of rejections that she’s been subjected to.

To begin with, the scene in Act 33 occurs after she’s defeated Dietrich who was engaging in a little software piracy using his Radu-Autojäger. To accomplish this Seth utilised her Crusnik abilities which caused a visible change, insta-violence and a lot of loud noise thus understandably her pet squirrel wasn’t too pleased about that. And it can be argued that Seth overreacts to squirrel-Abel’s reaction since said squirrel might easily have willingly come back to her with some careful coaxing and reassurance that sudden violence and noise wasn’t likely to erupt again but nevertheless she takes it to be outright and eternal rejection on the squirrel’s part. Which poses the question of why should the rejection of a squirrel effect an individual who styles herself a goddess so much? The answer most likely lies in what Seth takes that rejection to signify.

As Empress, Seth clothes herself in green and takes that colour to be hers and hers alone. She even goes so far as to decorate her throne room with images of Canadian forests. Thus she more or less attempts to style herself an eternal goddess mother earth figure. Nature then is the one thing that won’t ever reject her and of which she makes herself a part. The squirrel companion on her shoulder as she masquerades as a simple tea seller is just an extension of that and perhaps she even feels that having such a companion is her secret sign to common mortals that their eternal nature goddess walks among them. Unfortunately if she takes the squirrel to signify her link with nature then that fear and with it rejection displayed by the squirrel once she’s shown her Crusnik form becomes not just the rejection of one scared animal but rather the rejection of nature itself. She’s passed as a natural part of the cycle of things for quite some time but now that her inhuman form is revealed even nature itself calls her abomination and recoils in disgust, or so it seems to her.

The rejection of nature is only a step away from any number of typical traits displayed by ‘unnatural’ things, though the Promethean: the Created game system probably phrases it best as the disquiet caused by the presence of something that simply should not exist. Disquiet beginning in small ways such as slight reactions by nature that might not be entirely noticeable right up to plants withering and the area being occupied by the promethean turning into a wasteland. Seth may be a far cry from crops withering beneath her feet and wildlife fleeing in literal terms but figuratively she probably feels that she’s not far off. Because being rejected by nature in the form of her squirrel companion only compounds earlier rejections she’s suffered.

From her statement that she’s hated again it can be surmised that Seth’s been hated before and in fact she seems to build her entire society on the idea of her rejection by everything else. As the Empress she doesn’t engage with her people, she directs and orders them about but she is a separate entity, going so far as to hide her face and only make the rarest of public appearances and even then mostly via screens. Whether she’s been outright rejected by Methuselah could be debatable if not for the fact that other Methuselah exist and not just the ones who sided with Lilith. So there were other colonists who were injected with bacillus who didn’t accept Seth as their leader. Some did choose to follow a Crusnik but with Methuselah existing in places like Amsterdam it might easily be supposed that there were others who simply rejected Seth’s leadership outright before they even began to consider other factors. Seth’s Methuselah ‘children’ then are apt to reject her so she chooses not to run the risk of that again by deliberately separating herself from them and setting up a state system that doesn’t require their acceptance to function.

But so far that’s only two outright rejections and having one prior probably isn’t entirely enough to lead her to jump to those conclusions about a squirrel. The rejection preceding that then must have been rejection by terran. Having come as their saviour Seth was still rejected by the terran that she supposed she was aiding. Though this is a case where they most likely would have accepted help just as Lilith extended her aid to the Vatican but they chose to reject Seth’s aid which would have led to domination, quite understandably. This then ties in with a fourth rejection which may well have caused the fissure in her entire sense of self to start with.

As one of the genetically engineered leaders of the Mars project Seth at least should have found acceptance amongst her siblings and she may have done to a moderate degree on Mars but once they returned to Earth matters changed considerably. Lilith rejected not just Seth but the rest of the Contra Mundi triumvirate. Seth might have tolerated Lilith’s rejection because she was part of that triumvirate but Cain’s rejection was of everything and with Lilith’s death Abel proved that he too in his own way rejected everything that wasn’t Lilith herself. All of which left Seth exposed to the rejection of a family that didn’t value her as much as they valued something else.

Overall then, Seth has been rejected by the terran who she thought she’d save, her family who she believed she would find similarity with, her Methuselah ‘children’ who perhaps she feels ought to ‘owe’ her acceptance and at last by nature itself. Each rejection building on the message that she herself does not belong, not to family nor humanity nor to enhanced humanity and finally not to the natural order of things at all. And at last to all eyes she becomes an abomination, yet she is an abomination that attempts and fails to save everyone. Because despite her rejection she does in her own flawed fashion believe that she can achieve some good. Unfortunately for her because she is seen as an abomination and has internalised that she becomes a perfect example of the ends not justifying the means since whatever she may achieve is undercut by her nature as an outcast. And in her state of disconnection it’s pretty easy to see why all her good intentions flounder and how with each step she sees as progress she only builds a stronger argument on which is founded the means for her rejection time and time again.


Disclaimer: Of course I am slinging around the term ‘abomination’ here because Seth probably works quite well as a parallel of Alia in plenty of ways. Yes, it does always come back to Dune in the end.

Comments

[levy.livejournal.com]

The scene of the squirrel always sounded to me like some awkward way to try to bring up the argument of their ancient separation with Abel, more than a reaction to to squirrel-Abel refusal itself.
Remember that's the first time they see each other after 900 years, na I bet they didn't part as loving siblings back there.

But your scheme of rejection works perfectly with Seth's psycology, expecially with the destruction of her (artificial, to begin with...) familiar nucleus.

She maybe wished to be something much more normal and feel part of something else, but she'll never admit this, not even in front of herself. Even more than Abel, she's never been able to overcome the ghost of her exceptionality and so, since she's too stubborn, proud and self-centered, she converted the monstruosity her brother feels so guilty about in a trait of divinity, with the result of being much more isolated and unable to relate with other sensitive beings than Abel is.

[reichsfreiherr.livejournal.com]

You do have a point there and if that’s the case that was really rather ham-fisted in the execution. Presumably Abel and Seth might have got along pre-Lilith’s death but after that I could see his tendency to extremes translating into a general sort of hatred for her as an offshoot of Contra Mundi.

Seth’s very much a study in the sort of defences that children who are ostracised for their academic skills build up. Nobody tells them that their academic ability/intelligence/whatever else it may be isn’t the same as their ability to form interpersonal relationships so they think that because they’re doing well at school easily enough they ought not to have to work at building friendships either. Thus they end up telling themselves that they’re being ostracised not because their interpersonal skills are lacking but because they’re ‘better’ than everybody else. Seth is ‘better’ in so far as she was designed to be the academic genius and of the remaining siblings she’s not let either guilt or madness consume her but at the same time she’s also the most stunted in her personal growth. Even Cain who is arguably a madman has extended himself beyond his original capacity where as Seth simply hasn’t and there in lies her failure.

[levy.livejournal.com]

I have no idea on how their relationship is handled in the novels (still have to read ROMIII) but from the manga, you got the impression that Abel and Seth shared a sibling affection back on Mars (she's holding his arm in the photo), and that even today they share some kind of brotherly love. But when Lilith died, Abel abandoned/rejected everything he had to be buried with Lilith in a total refusal of everything he had done since he denied Lilith first, and Seth was on top of that 'everything'.

And what you said about Cain is paradoxally true: he evolved, not for the good, but he moved on, while Seth is trying hard to artificially rebuilt the things she's loved and lost: canadian forest, a 'family', the switch between day and night...
The first praticall reason why she kept herself segregated from her people it's obvious: cover with devotion what could be feared as abomination otherwise; but still, the reason for her many unnecessary lies about the true nature of methuselah might be explained as a total refusal to acknolwedge the very existence of the nanites she harbored.
Those same nanites that were the triggering element for the destruction/fall of her social (the RMP, the Returners/Methuselah) and private (the tube babies family) sphere.

[reichsfreiherr.livejournal.com]

I can’t help but wonder if that sibling affection on Mars was founded on a mutual distance and in a certain sense distaste for those they were meant to be leading. Abel hated everything and Seth most likely saw herself as superior, which is one of her consistent personality traits. If their relationship was founded on a mutual distaste for humans in general then when Abel was finally shaken out of that attitude by Lilith’s death suddenly he and Seth would have lost the major point they had in common. From Seth’s point of view his change of heart would probably seem quite incomprehensible because she never changes and from Abel’s direction he’d begin to see the flaws in his previously adorable little sister. Of course by the stage of their meeting almost a thousand years later Abel may well be resigned to the fact that Seth’s become incomprehensible to him and Seth may have deliberately fostered the belief that Abel’s a lost cause since he treats humans as equals.

If Seth honestly refuses to acknowledge that it’s the nanites that have given her and her ‘children’ their powers then she has more problems than anybody else in the series, though it does remind me of a game review a little while ago where ‘divine’ powers were acquired through cybernetics. I suspect that the reason for the lies about their beginnings would be to cover the fact that mere terrans would just as easily acquire the same abilities as Seth’s master race. If she first encouraged the Methuselah to think of themselves as better to counteract the terran propaganda of the time that called them monsters then that would be yet another example of where she’s tried to apply a short-term solution to a long-term problem. At the time of the post-Armageddon wars she’d need to encourage her troops, especially as they were the smaller number but to then build on that and make it an national belief really isn’t viable. Every nation may think that it’s superior to all others (and it’s a good way to maintain boundaries for any artificially created group) but nobody is fool enough to broadcast that fact because at the end of the day while you may well believe that your country’s cassis is superior to everybody else’s, everyone else is still your equal on the world stage and you have to work with them to create a functional international system. But then that would be the problem really, Seth doesn’t want to create a multi-polar international system; she just wants to conquer the world.

[levy.livejournal.com]

I put it on a more simple and emotive level, at least on Abel's side. By the time Lilith died at the hands of Cain and he and Seth almost killed him, he lost any interest in anything but his own grief. During his centuries-long mourning he had time to rethink Lilith's lesson of life and maybe then started to see flaws in his little sister personality. He also changed a lot himself and by the time they meet again he can no longer share a common life with her, but the reason he dropped her down at first was, to me, nothing more than blind pain and sorrow that he didn't want to share with anyone else and the suspension of his very existence he actuated burying himself inside Lilith's grave.


I suspect that the reason for the lies about their beginnings would be to cover the fact that mere terrans would just as easily acquire the same abilities as Seth’s master race.

And this is the very reason while her whole reasoning and her propaganda (admittings she's the one that forced that kind of propagand into her people) makes not much sense in a bigger plan for conquering the world.
Think about it: why not try otherwise to persuade the Terrans that being a Methuselah is easy and awesome? Why not try to 'seduce them instead of fighting them' - if I can paraphrase Eloy from Q. ? That makes me think that the real problem with Seth is not only being a controll-freak, but a radical-pessimist controll-freak.
I'm kidding, but you are right in the whole long-term vs short-term take on the matter. If you have to built an artificial nation, you most probably need an artificial national pride, but when this is founded on blantant lies, it arises more problems than those he solves in the long run.




I don't remember where it came from

[levy.livejournal.com]

I don't remember where it came from
nevermind this line, rag of comment I screwed while editing, sorry.

[reichsfreiherr.livejournal.com]

I’ve no idea what Seth was actually doing when Abel brought Lilith’s body down from the Arc so it’s entirely possible that she was far too busy with her armies long before then anyway. The anime shows her on the Arc with them but it also shows them growing up on Mars which is equally non-canonical. I could imagine that Seth would have been involved with organizing the fight against the terran while Abel might just have been out there killing people himself because of his hatred so they might not have been close confidants exactly anyway.

why not try otherwise to persuade the Terrans that being a Methuselah is easy and awesome? Why not try to 'seduce them instead of fighting them'

Quite simply because Seth simply isn’t possessed of anything like charisma and has very little skill at public presentation. She just couldn’t carry a cult of personality like Cain or even attempt to persuade people through her own charm like Dietrich or Süleyman. She seems to know it too which ties in with her preference for hiding herself rather than presenting herself as the glorious goddess.

[levy.livejournal.com]

(crap.... LJ deleted my longer comment T_T... that was not saying anything special but that manga-wise is somehow implied that Seth partecipates in getting rid of Cain after Lilith'd murder... don't know about the novels, I haven't read ROMIII yet )

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

Canon book states Cain had been gravely wounded by Lilith during their fight and couldn't defend himself when Abel push him off the Arc II into the Earth atmosphere. IDK what was Seth doing but she was against the peace treaty (while Abel didn't know how to vote) she may have not be around in the ship or even alerted to what happened.

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

I don't remember ROM III dialogue (I'll look that up), but in Canon it's Lilith who beats Cain before he kills her and Abel pushes him out the Arc II in rage.

It also says Lilith knew she was going to die and purposefully gave Abel a message of hope and love about thee world before reuniting with Cain (I wonder if she didn't plan it: her death cause the end of the period of wars that had began for decades in Earth AND Mars plus changed Abel's ways as she wanted to. Didn't last forever, but that was exactly what the world needed to rise from the ashes).

This is true. Seth isn't charismatic like Lilith or Cain are, neither is Abel. They are well-liked but certainly not "leader" material. Seth keeps herself veiled because mystery helps her to keep her goddess status.